Tuesday, 2 July 2013

Unlike Father, Unlike Son


Padwa protests

From Halichos Chanoch, by Rav Avrhohom Yonah Schwartz

I once discussed with the Rav [the late Rav Padwa] the principles of protesting against breaches [of religious practice], and he showed me the words of the Trumas Hadeshen that protest should often be avoided.

"Be aware that my soul is shocked by the hostility, strife and battle in your community which is caused mainly by scorn and abuse. I anticipate withdrawing shortly from being involved in these matters because I realise that I lack the strength to clear the paths and remove the obstacles. I am for peace but when I speak they are for war, and this is therefore a voluntary preoccupation and not obligatory and so what is it to me?"

I heard from Rav Heshil Padwa that at the time when his father the Rav lived in Jerusalem there were often demonstrations against chilul shabbos and many of the residents of Botei Broide, where the Rav served as a Dayan, would attend the demonstrations. The Rav, however, did not go. A local resident once complained to the Rav why he does not attend the protests. The Rav replied, there is indeed an obligation to protest but why do Rav Pinchas Epstein and Rav Bengis and other city elders not fulfil this mitzvah. This suggests that they are of the view that the mitzvah [of holding protests] is for people of a lower order. Although I don't consider myself to be on an elevated level I'm also not obliged to publicise myself as belonging to the lower order.

Once there was a demonstration in London against the Israeli government and the Rav refused to attend. This caused an outcry in some circles. I asked the Rav for his reasons and he replied that had he attended journalists and the media would have been aware of his presence and would have asked him questions and since he is not fluent in English he could not answer them properly. And even if his English was good enough he would also not go as he holds a position of authority and every word of his matters. He must therefore be articulate to be able respond appropriately, and no response also carries a responsibility. And so he decided that it would be preferable not to attend.

…vs. this

Padwa Brussels


No police said...

As he's been so keen to demonstrate over the past year, the useless brocho le'vatolo that is Paddy Powerless is always on hand to make a stand when there are improprieties that must be protested. I'd call him a clown if his incoherence didn't prevent me from discerning whether anything he said was funny. Haven't Chelm asked for their rov back yet?

פי האסון said...

I have very little time and patience for anything which is in any way connected to the current Rov and management of the Kehillah, aka UOHC.

Unlike his father, who was sought-out for the position and was furnished with glowing recommendations from the elite of the Torah world, the incumbent does not have a right or claim to the position of Rov. Such an appointment requires a majority vote of the entire kehilla - which did not take place. And if the position is inheritable, he has an older brother – the position of Rov is not passed on from one yoresh to the next until it is fulfilled. (And if it is indeed an inheritable position, than why has the late Dayan Dunner’s position not been passed to a [any] son?) Furthermore, the 3 qualifying requirements to enable someone to take up the position are: מי שהוא חכם ושפל ברך ודעת הבריות נוחה הימנו, wisdom, good middos and has garnered favourable public opinion, indisputably the Rov does not enjoy (even a majority of) all three.

Rabbis V & S Schonfeld זצ"ל, established the UOHC to serve ultra-orthodox, Torah observant, Anglo-Jewry. Dedicated self-sacrifice to help others was not an aphorism they bandied about at a Kol-Nidrei sermon – it was their way of life. (Even after his stroke the late Rb Dr S Schonfeld walked for over 2 hours on Yom Kippur – every year – to look after the far-flung outposts of the Adass). Today, the entire structure of the UOHC is based on corruption, nepotism and cronyism, and is run by self-serving, disingenuous, egotistical braggarts.

As Mr Tickle points out, the Rov does not follow the diktats of his father, hence his attendance at this farcical demonstration. One should note that he is quick to “blame” his refusal for accepting the NW London & his ban against even exploring the N London eruvin.

I don’t wish to get involved with questioning his talmudical/halachical status and knowledge, however, regarding the running and management of the Kehilla, particularly the disgraceful affair that has been the talk of the town for the past 9 months, he has shown that he is sorely lacking in the skills needed for such a position as well as suffering with a deficiency of common sense.

In the past, particularly following his whirlwind tours of NW London to quell any talk of a break in the Kehilla, he was viewed as an inconsequential eccentricity with a speech impediment that any self-respecting human being would realise was sufficient reason not to accept a position of that nature – recognising that there is more to the job than wearing a kolpik and wielding a hammer. Following his mismanagement and constant retractions of the 2012-2013 epic events, he is regarded with contemptuous disdain, and considered on par with the village idiot. History will show that his was the greatest role in the break-up of any semblance of unity amongst the observant Jews of London and a major contributor to the desecration of His name.

I fail to comprehend why any person is baffled by his attendance at the protest demonstration; it is just so typical of him. I do, however, wonder if the costs of the trip came out of the communal coffers?

Anonymous said...

Mark saya
According to google no newspaper except some obscure one in Canada or radio or TV station reported it. Serves them right for saying it's civil war in Israel. Bringing the American Satmar mentality of lying doesnt fool anyone in Europe except the satmar themselves. They do report about the 'civil' war in Egypt.
The principle nation in the EEC is Germany. Isnt it typical of Satmar of going to complain to the Germans of Jewish religious intolerance.

snag said...

No stira, Padwa jun. is not in a position of authority.

SH educated said...

The reason he attended the "demo" is because he is a Satmarer chossid.
He davens in Satmar (86) every day. He gives his 2 annual keynote speeches (Shuva and Hagodol) in Satmar.
He entirely ignored Belz until he became Rov and then only after pressure from certain powerful quarters.
Note carefully and you will see that every one of his "rulings" etc. are based broadly on the Satmar shittah.

פי האסון said...

SH Uneducated That's not a valid reason. A rov of a kehilla represents the entire kehilla and he must always put the kehilla first. There is no place for any personal negius.

It is in this week's parsha: Nekoym, Moshe was told to take revenge against the midyonim and then he will die, it never entered his mind that by delaying the battle against midyon he would extend his life. He was the leader and if it was for klal Yisroel's benefit to go to war now, he didn't delay at all.

Of course the incumbent is not just unlike his father, he is also unlike moshe. The first thing moshe pointed out when he was chosen to be the leader was ואנכי ערל שפתים. To expect our rov to put the klal before his own personal agenda, is like expecting to wake up tomorrow morning and find an omer per head of mon on my doorstep - not impossible but highly unlikely.

sh educated said...

Pi Ho'osoin.

I didn't say he is justified in what he does/did or that it is a valid reason. I was explaining why he does what he does and what I believe is his self-justification for his conduct.

פי האסון said...

I don't believe his thought process can deal with self-justification. He does what he does because he does whatever his puppet masters tell him to do.

sh educated said...

Exactly. That is his (self) justification. He believes that like all great leaders he should act on the advice of close advisers.

BTW (my computer is not Hebrew enabled) "osoin" is spelt with a "tav" NOT a "samech".

פי האסון said...

But the disastrous osoin is "SPELLED" with a samech

BTW spelt is an ancient variety of flour.

פי האסון said...

*wheat (not flour).

sh educated said...

*corn (not wheat).

Holidays again! said...


פי האסון said...

Wheat. Not corn!

sh educated said...

Wheat is one of the "chameshes minei dogon" of which spelt is another.

Lev Aryeh said...

You are late Tickle!

The chumrah song!


"When the Rebbe throws apples I play left field"

Anonymous said...

The attitude of certain members of the UOHC Rabbonnim is unforgivable on so many levels.

I was at a shiva 2 weeks ago when RPR came to visit one of the availim who is a member of HA.

He completely blanked the other 4 availim, failed to look at them, acknowledge them, or even wish them Hamokom when he walked out.

Another shameful display of arrogance that drives people away from the community.

I was disgusted...but unsurprised at what a piece of work he is.

פי האסון said...



Pinchos ain't no zealot said...

Of course RPR is a piece of work. The entire mess NW London is in now is entirely his fault. This took place on his patch, not DE's. He knew the truth and was willing to say so in private, and despite the fact that it was perfectly clear to everyone involved that his signature could sort it out in one go, he put cronyism first. He was oh so outspoken and brave when it came to fighting DE's eruv but when there was something useful to be done he was crouched under the desk crying for Paddy. What a pathetic excuse for a human being.

sh educated said...

Mishna Pesochim 35a.
Today's daf as it happens.

Raleigh Klaus said...

The gratuitous insults against RPR are shameful. Anyone can criticize someone else's behaviour at a shiva, plenty of wiser people have made gaffs. Some really vile trolls are being flushed from the foul-smelling cyber drains by this issue.

PANZ said...

And what about the fact that his inaction has allowed the horrible situation in NW London to fester?

Anonymous said...

I was one of the Availim in question. I have no problem in giving out my name, but have chosen not to out of respect for other members of my family.
For you to insinuate that I am a vile troll is a pretty foul and low blow.
This was a deliberate snub. We were feet away. This was not some 'silly mistake'. It is the way he behaves. Strangely enough, others along with RDH showed utmost respect.
PR is a self-obsessed, obnoxious fool. He is so blinded and blinkered that he can't see the wood for the trees.
How halachically could he justify ignoring me at my mothers shiva? It's not as if he didn't know me. He didn't speak at my Bar Mitzvah.Ethically? Morally? You find the excuse? "I'm a vile troll".
His behaviour was hurtful and totally unnecessary. My Father was particularly hurt.
You along with other fools can consider it a gaff. I consider it deliberate.
And for insulting me...you're a fool who tried to excuse the inexcusable.

sh educated said...

Raleigh Klaus.

Thank you. I and most of this blog's followers agree with you.

Unlike Pi Ho'osoin's attack on REP which was well thought out and mostly true (indeed common knowledge) the attacks on RPR are totally unjustified.

Mr. Tickle, a bit of moderation would greatly elevate the respect of this blog.

Anonymous said...


פי האסון said...

Not that I expect to see good middos from anyone who is connected UOHC, the shortcomings you describe are a particular trait of the particular gentleman who has a penchant for snubbing people in public.

For years, people greet him in the street, wishing him good shabbos, only to receive a quick sneer in response.

Too frequently, he will sing the praises of an individual during his speech at a simcha, and completely ignore the other balei simcha, thereby publicly humiliating them.

With the exception of a handful of members of HAYC, who have persistently attached themselves to his coattails, he is unfamiliar with the names of people who have been davvening at the Adass for years.

His is the only shul I can think of that was bursting at the seams when he took up his appointment, some 45 years ago, and has shrunk it down to about a 20% occupancy.

Whilst none can deny his vast knowledge and amazing oratory skills, he still pulls a respectable crowd for his shabbos hagodol and teshuva droshos, he is suited to being a Rosh yeshiva; he is sorely lacking in the skills necessary for a communal rabbi.

פי האסון said...

Just as he has his own unique way in dealing with other people, so too, he has a unique method for dealing with communal matters. He does not see it as his duty to protect others or stop corrupt behaviour within the organisation he is a member of.

The only reason he was so vociferous about his objections to the Eruv, is because he was personally affronted and made into a laughing stock.

פי האסון said...

Santa, this is not your season.

Gratuitous? They are well deserved.

Plenty of people make mistakes, but a senior dayan of the union and a rov of a community like Hendon, with the years of experience he has under his shabbos-belt, should know how to behave at a shiva. This was not a gaff, it's his m.o.

A M Ho'oretz said...

I am a former neighbour of RPR and can say unequivocally from personal, first-hand experience, that ignoring yidden that do not fit his vision of tmmimus, is very much his style and has been for years.

I used to see him daily passing by in the street and at first I always offered a reverential Good Morning or Good Evening. After several days of being totally ignored, I noticed that he started to turn his head towards me when I greeted him and and turn up his lips in what appeared to be a painful grimace. AT first I thought he was suffering from some terrible ailment, so the next time I offered hima Refuah Shlaimo, this was greeted by the same grimace, at which point I thought that perhaps he was suffering from a palsy that made his smile look like a grimace and I was pleased that he was smiling at me. Some time later I visited his shul for the first time and saw him give a drosha, realising that he did not in fact have a palsy, it finally dawned on me that he had no physical affliction of any sort, he was just simply being rude.

I just crossed the road to avoid him after that.

There is no excuse for ANY Rov (or ANY JEW) not to show common courtesy to another Yid.

Mi K'Amcho Yisroel?

not imPRessed said...

While of course RPR is in no way akin to the Carpathian hoodlums who came close to destroying our kehillah over the last year, that does nothing to excuse his very serious faults.

Even before his actions in the 'painful saga' which demonstrated a total abdication of responsibility (not turning up at internal rabbinate meetings is not the same as taking a public stand), it has long been clear that he has a near unmatched penchant for pettiness and magnifying the faults of anyone slightly to his left whilst neither hearing nor seeing any evil when it comes to those on his right.

Has anyone stopped using the eruv because RPR ignores them on shabbos? Did he get anywhere nearer to installing his desired mechitza by snidely referring to Dayonim E and G as 'United Synagogue rabbis'? Does not stepping into Ner Yisroel accomplish anything for Yiddishkeit?

All of this would be tolerable, and perhaps attributable to his 'strongly held principles' were those principles consistently applied. But when he reacts to very serious financial misbehaviour on the part of a certain local rabbinic figure with 'I'm sorry, I don't take that family on', when he single handedly destroys what would have been a uniform effort by rabbonei NWL to come out with a proclamation stating that violating issurei arayos is wrong even if you wear a shtreimel, then we can all see what his so called principles are worth.

פי האסון said...

Which elements of my "attack" on the bounced cheque (RPR), are inaccurate?

I merely state the facts I'm confronted by. In the early 60s there were 2 Shuls in Hendon, the United Synagogue in Raleigh Close and HAYC on Brent Street. The US Shul was dwindling and the Adass was overflowing. Move on 50 years, Raleigh Close is full every Shabbos, Ner Yisroel has a turnover of more than 1800 mispalellim over a Shabbos, there are 4 Sphardi Shuls all packed every Shabbos. Dayan Abrahams' is standing room only, Dayan CE - full, Rb Tugendhaft - full, Federation, Rb Dovids, Rb Kimche jnr, Pesach Gross, Independent, Jews College, etc, all busy and growing. Even the Skolars upstairs is full. This list is not exhausted and does not include any of the Shuls on the GG side of NCR which also attract Hendon residents. The only shul that can afford to sell the family home and downsize is HAYC.

Of course there is always coincidence, for the fools who believe that G-d and RPR mutually decide the future.

sh educated said...

The reason RPR (said he) was so violently against the eiruv was because anti-eiruv was then the flagship policy of the Halperns who, then, ( he believed)dominated NW London orthodoxy and also anti-eiruv in general was the flagship policy of the UOHC of which he considered himself to be a senior member.
It most certainly not because of his depth of knowledge of the relevant halachot or he because he really in his heart believed that an eiruv is forbidden.

Former HAYC said...

I actually was one of the "eirev rav" who left rpr over his eruv stance.
The fact that you are on this blog writing a diatribe against rpr shows that he was 100% right to "snub" you and your father and it was obviously well deserved!
We may not agree about rpr's rulings or opinions but even us: the so called "eiruv rav" vilified by people like A.S in the J.T for using our own hard earned money to build a shul that meets our hashkofas and yes, purchasing a fine Rov, will still stipulate that rpr has earned and deserves respect for his unwavering honesty and zealousness for the truth he believes.
I am sorry for your loss but this actually shows his greatness. His willingness to still pay a shiva call to his own member and being willing to overlook the other evil people present simply proves that he is unique and even his formers members still begrudgingly albeit secretly, do admire and respect his stance and convictions.
Again- your own rant proved he was right to snub you!

Anonymous said...

And that is why you are obviously "S.H educated"!! "S.H educationally deficient" would be far more appropriate. I won't delve into your 'hillbilly' writing skills. Just point out that your facts are not just wrong, you seem warped to the extent that I would venture to suggest that rpr paskened against you when he sat on the beis din in S.H and you have never recovered the ignominy of a Hendon litvishe "rabbi" having a superior knowledge to almost all the beaver tail tiara wearing Rabooonim on the Hill combined.
The facts are that R'Chuna (who by the way was originally supposed to share the pulpit with rpr) was attempting to make an n.w london eruv over 40 years ago! He was initially the eruv's most ardent supporter. He has written teshuvas dated from then attesting to this.
RPR's profound knowledge on hilchos eruvin in its entirety has been acknowledged by no less of a person than D'C.E who claimed that there is only one person in London who is halachicly superior to rpr's encyclopedic and in-depth knowledge. That person claimed D'C.E: is no less than D'C.E.

Anonymous said...

Another loser with a bone to pick with rpr.
What you write is certainly a well thought out story worthy of addition to Harry Potter volume 8.
RPR has never walked anywhere ever in the morning! He has always driven himself to shul and a stroll down S.Grove has never been on his scheduled daily routine!
So your daily "good morning" attempts and "road crossing" sufferings are simply, well, figments of your limited imaginational capabilities, and that's putting it mildly!

פי האסון said...

RPR was opposed to the eruv because it was "that upstart" Rabbi Alan Kimche who proposed as a fait accompli at an asifas harabonim. Having proposed it, the local Rabbonim started to debate the possible difficulties that may arise, immediately RAK produced a survey carried out by the world's foremost expert on eiruvin, proving its viability. At that point REH was in favour. The only objector was RPR, who concocted some theory that it would advance chilul shabbos, but his underlying reason for the objection was his hatred for RAK.

When it became public knowledge that RPR was the sole objector and for what stated reason he was objecting, it promoted an ambiance of dislike of him and his reasoning. The idea of the eruv drew popular support and within days the "we want the eruv" bumper stickers were being displayed on a vast number of cars.

RPR then started a campaign to garner support for his objection by going to REH and complaining that the bumoer stickers are solely designed to mock him, which is a bizuy talmid chochom, which is unacceptable. That is when REH changed his mind and became an objector, and roped his sons into forming a strong anti eruv stance. The rest is history.
The "depth of knowledge" of all the UK naysayers - which even when combined doesn't amount to much - was totally irrelevant. The entire objection is due to RPR hating RAK for taking on the job of the Rabbi of Ner, which eventually led to many dessertions from the Adass. If RPR was an objective person, he would realise that had he done his job properly, there would be no defectors and his minyan would be a great success. But; it is so much easier to blame others for your own shortcomings.

Disillusioned of Golders Green said...

It beggars belief that people still feel respect for RPR after he so magnificently dropped the ball last year. He has single handedly demonstrated that even the most basic issue of simple human decency does not suffice to awaken our leadership out of their self righteous stupor. The man is beneath contempt.

A M Ho'oretz said...

Anonymous of 4 August 2013 03:12

I see that you are either a) a devout talmid chochom who has jumped onto the internet (inappropriate?) to reply to my post after getting up at midnight for tikkun chatzos and then learning half the night or b) an A M Ho'oretz like myself, who has been out partying in the nightclubs until the early hours and came on to have a "Tickle" half-cut (or maybe whole-cut for all I know) just before falling unceremoniously into your pit.

I had no bones (or even noses) to pick with RPR. When I first move into "the Grove" I naively saw him as a Senior Rabbi worthy of much respect and treated him accordingly. He lost my respect with his subsequent behaviour. I am not too familiar with the works of J K Rowling (as you seem to be - perhaps you were up until late finishing the "Half Blood Prince?), but I suspect that despite her renowned, considerable literary talents, even she would struggle to dream up a fictional villain of his ilk.

You appear to be very intimately familiar with RPR's movements (which is worrying enough), but were you able to properly comprehend the written word, you would not have inferred that I was in any way suggesting that RPR walks to shul in the mornings. I simply wrote that on various occasions we passed each other in the street and I attempted to greet him in a manner appropriate to the relevant time of day. My written observations of how those interactions played out, are extremely accurate, I assure you. Unless you are so intimate with RPR that you sit in the pocket of his 'Frank' I'm not clear how you are attempting to debunk my experiences by suggesting that he has never ventured out of his house to walk down "The Grove" - how does he get to shul on Shabbos for instance? (certainly not in his Tzomet approved mobility scooter I'm assuming!)

Why you are so bothered as to post a reply challenging me on the facts, which are unequivocally how I have stated them, is beyond ME - to put it mildly.

The fact that people are exercising their right to show just how they feel about his Rabbonus by leaving HAYS in their droves, rendering it a mere shell of what it once was, says it all. The proof is after all in the Matzo Pudding.

PS I do like figs, but figments, not so much. As to my 'imaginational capabilities', I would venture (without meaning to show arrogance) that they far exceed yours, but then we will never be able to put that to the test as you remain Anonymous, just as I remain and will always be an A M Ho'oretz

PPS Don't take yourself so seriously dude - this is all meant to be a bit of fun.

Betrayed former supporter said...

The rabbis who came out publically against CH are to be commended. However the true villain is indeed RPR. He is (aside from Halpern senior) the senior Union rov in GG/H. This happened on his turf - he should have opined. Instead he spent two weeks writing a meaningless letter. He may come across as pious and unwavering in his commitment to frumkeit but it is a sham. This emperor of NW frumkeit has no clothes.

sh educated said...

If I would ever write such drivel I would also by-line it "anonymous".

Just for the record. I have had over the years 2 din torahs at UOHC beth din, both of which I won and neither of which was attended by RPR. Living in Stamford Hill I have had very little to do with him and all the rare occasions I meet him e.g. at simchos etc. we are quite cordial to each other.

The old lawyers' dictum; when you can't break the evidence break the witness.

פי האסון said...

RPR was a naive kollel yungerman when he was offered, and accepted, the job of the Rov of HAYC. I believe that he became disillusioned very quickly upon realising the enormity of the gap between his vision of what an Adass synagogue member ought to be and what the majority of his new congregants are. He was stuck with a contract of employment, which provided a decent pay, housing and pension, and honoured his contract to the letter.

His contact probably stipulates the number of weekends he is allowed off, his requirements regarding attendance at bris, Barmitzvah, chuppa and wedding celebrarions, as well as R"l funerals. The frequency of shiurim and speeches to be given and the inflexibility in changing the time for Shabbos Mincha. Being an honourable man, he abides by the terms of his contract. It does not say in his contract that he must be pleasant or greet people pleasantly, nor does it say that he may not hold people in contempt. I'm pretty sure that there is no clause insisting that at a shiva he must pay his respect to all the mourners - just the ones who are current members of HAYC, so he is contractually free to ignore all other mourners.

Furthermore, I am almost certain that neither his employment contract as rov oh HA nor as dayan umoreh tzedek of UOHC include as one of his duties or obligations, that when a matter concerning impropriety by other rabbis or matters concerning the community at large, he must act in the best interests of the victims or of the community.

Whether this attitude and behaviour is acceptable in the eyes of the Lord, particularly when it affects other people, is between him and his Maker. I personally don't believe it is, but - I'm just a stupid ass.

What I do find illuminating is that this thread started out as a comparison of the differences between father and son of the Padwa family, yet one aside reference about RR to illustrate that REP is not the sole miscreant amongst the UOHC rabbinate, and it has twisted into a lengthy debate as to the pros and cons of RPR.

zanvel said...

"It does not say in his contract that he must be pleasant or greet people pleasantly"

It says that in his contract with the Ribbono Shel Olam.

Unrabbled said...

You bastards. RPR was stricken with Bell's Palsy some years back which results in that unfortunate permanent "sneer" that you take so personally.

He has always been under-appreciated by those of Hendon who dislike any obligations that they see as imposed on them by rabbonim. Hendon is a great place, with many great people but for some: Let nothing disturb the All Important 21st century Ehnglish Jew's Life of Unconcerned Modernity and Orthodoxy Without Demands.

The fact that many left HAYS so they can carry their car keys and socialise Friday night without paying for a goyshe babysitter is no big surprise. There are many who would leave a shul just because they were shushed during leining.

Just look at his gemorah shiruim and his packed-to-the-rafters shabbos hagodol droshoh, as well as his standing by the general NW public (and excluding the internet-obsessed gossipers here) to see what his views really were.

I not going to name names, but if any of you think RPR was less forthright than other rabbonim over this scandal, I have a bridge to sell you (and it's not the curly wurly one that connects The Grove with Hendon).

The crowd here imagines that the scandal is so perfectly clear-cut with all players ready to show their hands and that it's a good as a tried-and-convicted court-case after which rabbonim can force extra-judicial action. It's not. It's messy, complicated and real life.

There was originally much progress made trying to make headway by rabbonim of all sides, but the sheer stupidity of lay members and blog writers, who took matters into their own hands in their pent-up fury, ruined any form of process let alone justice. You all have yourselves to blame.

Rabbonim are not superhuman and you can't denigrate them repeatedly and then expect them to make a stand that requires utmost adherence and respect from the kehillah. (Unless of course, you're just after a good vent no matter what the truth is, or as A M Ho'oretz said "this is all meant to be a bit of fun". Revolting.)

You all make me utterly sick, you're complicit in the same scandal that horrifies you.

I'd like to quote back at you all the words of a gentile judge, who no doubt has seen at all and has to deal with the worst of unfounded gossip and defamation, yet described the people here as: "people who make weasely comments online in circumstances such as this"

David said...

Unrabbled - what a load of unreconstructed cobblers. This was an incredibly simple scenario and the fact that RPR bottled it cannot be blamed on the blogs. If you can think of any limmud zechus for RPR's pathetic excuse for a letter or his refusal to sign the gilui daas I'm all ears.

What is certain is that almost no progress was made without the public outcry that this very blog generated.

Which rabbonim from all sides do you refer to? Padwa, who even after the Sunday meeting begged DE to allow CH to stay on the rabbinate as an observer? Or perhaps Eisner, who refused to take ten minutes to speak to the GD signatory who lives two minutes walk away from him throughout? Or maybe Porky, whose behaviour seems to exercise you not at all.

As for the eruv, I'll go with the Tzitz Eliezer's 'mitzvoh habo'oh leyodcho al tachmitzenoh' in his teshuva to R. Kimche and DE over RPR's petty stance any day.

פי האסון said...

Correct. And that is a matter between him and his Maker. As I've stated above.

Unfortunately I am unable to write comments in bold or underline words or any such other methods of drawing your attention to what I've written, so you will just have to read every word, as I don't normally repeat myself. If you don't have the intellect to read, why bother commenting?

פי האסון said...

Unrabbled, but not opposed to almost ceaseless waffle. I shall not make aspersions as to your parentage, but do assure you that like most of your commentary, your statement is unfounded and incorrect.

Bells Palsy may have left him with an unfortunate facial expression, but it is not on permanent display, it only comes on when a person greets him? I suppose it also left him permanently incapable of uttering the 2 simple words of "good shabbos" or "good morning" or whatever other appropriate Liverpudlian response would be?

If your engineering abilities are on par to your knowledge of the subject matter being discussed above, any bridge you attempted to build would collapse under the weight of your ignorance.

I don't know of anyone who lefy HA because they weren't permitted to carry in the eruv, I know of people who were publicly shamed by him, for using a walking stick - which he himself had permitted previously and for not physically fighting with his son in law who came to push his wife in a wheelchair. Or how about the gentleman who asked his rov a shylah about carrying in the eruv and was told that it is permitted; and was subsequently asked to be a witness at a chuppa - at which RPR, managed to overcome his inability to speak to strangers or whatever else he is suffering from and, vociferously - and halachically incorrectly - voided his ability to be a witness for being a mechalel shabbos befarhesyah.

In the matter of headway by the Rabbonim. Following the publicity of the kol koreh, the local Rabbonim considered their duty fulfilled. Rb Cohn of North Hendon publicly promoted his shul's decision to leave the union as a protest, yet in continues his support for all other areas of the union and accepted the role of suffrah d'daynah for their special Beis din. Rb Hager wrote some cryptic letters which could be understood as referring to anyone at anytime or as being strongly opposed to as well as strongly in favour of .... and then we have the letter great action by RPR who was more forthright than any other of the Rabbonim, by penning a letter that said he refuses to say anything in public, if anyone has a genuine need to know, he will speak to them in private.

This is not the behaviour or action of a noble rov nor one who is seeking to repair the damage to a broken kehilla. It is the action of someone who, is a Tzaddik within his 4 cubits, but is not suited for public leadership, is in a position of public leadership and has made no attempt to fulfil that role. And whilst he has done much good in his lifetime and has a big heart - as anyone who has overheard his shmone esrei, especially refoeinuh - nevertheless, עתיד הוא ליתן דין וחשבון

Finally, whilst the subjects discussed regard very serious matters, none the less an informal discussion such as a blog with everybody from the blogger to the commentaries using pseudonyms, is only intended as a bit of fun. Nothing anyone writes in the blog or comments are going to make any changes in law, Jewish or civil, nor will it deter sinners from sinning or cause them to repent. It is to publicise perceived wrongdoing and to debate them openly, and to allow an ignoramus to call me a bastard, which he hasn't got the guts to do in his own name. It lets you vent your opinions without the social constraints of politeness, etc. but it does necessitate the participants to the debate to have the mental capacity to read, digest and then comment whilst being able to understand the subtleties of exaggeration and synicism.

Lakewood said...


Molesters across the pond in Lakewood

Unrabbled said...

פי האסון, your tired rehashed eruv arguments are but the shallow tip of a very deep argument about you very clearly know nothing about, and repetitive to the extreme. You're also quite a few months too late to argue it on this blog blog, and about a decade late to the actual debate.

Mr. Expert on Ceaseless Waffle, you also have clearly not ever experienced a loved one with Bell's Palsy (and may you never) nor so much as bothered to read even a Wikipedia article on it and yes, the "quick sneer" is exactly the lasting symptoms of a man stuck with this condition trying to move partially paralysed muscles and my close relative had the same problem.

Your hatred for the rov is barely concealed (classic sinas am haaretz letalmid chochom and all that) despite the old trick of throwing in a few compliments to make the insults more belivable (some of my best friends are black). Just take a deep breath and look away from your keyboard for the first time in a few months and wonder whether all those in New York who ascribe to R' Moshe's shittos consistently, not to mention the many in Jerusalem who don't carry in the eruv, they all no doubt have personal motives of the basest sort according to you. And mehadrin hechsherim are all money making mafias, no doubt. And tznios droshos are just to sell copies of Oz Vehodor, correct? And the Internet filters are just to restrict blogger telling the truth about our evil rabbonim, right? Why do you bother with Orthodox Judaism if you're such a cynic?

It's not "a bit of fun". It's real people and real life, something you appear only to have a tenuous attachment to. For you it might be a way to while away meaningless days but words, whether typed, spoken or written do have an effect, and have. In this case you clearly do't have the balls to actually sit down with any of those you defame face-to-face.

I took him up on his public letter to chat to anyone about this, and it was the most helpful, sensitive and clear response I received in this unfortunate parsha from anyone rov or layman, let alone anonymous blogger/defamer.

Lastly, how dare you ... you who embody everything that is evil and wrong about anonymous "people who make weasely comments online in circumstances such as this" .... dare to speak about "עתיד הוא ליתן דין וחשבון"? And then to chastise one of the other commentators? "hasn't got the guts to do in his own name"? You, who defame named people online (for "a bit of fun") while cowardly cowering behind your keyboard and your 12th anonymous pseudonym. Unmitigated hypocrisy or just plain floating on a sea of your own hubris? That's about the only thing I can't decide about you.

Bastard is a pejorative term when applied to you, my dear pi tabaas. From all you've written it does appear you have a shemetz psul. Vhamvin yovin.

You are a sad parody of the cynics and anonymous poison-letter writers and that every community statically must have (except that in the case of Yidden, we're supposed to be better than the rest in this regard). My biggest regret is that I've wasted precious minutes responding. I will not do so further.

(Oh, and this is how you bold words, since you're so desperate to "draw your attention to what I've written"). The same method works on all the other blogs you spam.

A M Ho'oretz said...

Well spoken Donkey-man!

What really gets my goat (sheep, cow, and donkey) is that people will visit this blog - specifically entitle If You Tickle Us, and make an assumption that it is an appropriate place for totally serious debate.

Fundamentally and inherently not so. By its very nature this a forum for people to poke fun, vent their spleen and have a few belly laughs about admittedly serious issues. The sad truth is that to do this is a very natural response that the human condition requires to things that make us deeply uncomfortable, because if you can't laugh at yourelf - then who are you really?

The even sadder truth is that if our so-called leadership acted in an appropriate fashion and dealt with problems in our midst, there would be nothing to poke fun at and no need for this blog.

There ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be a more serious forum at which these issues are debated seriously and remedial action taken, but since those fora already exist and are led by baboon faced charlatans that are more interested in how best to line their greasy cholent smeared pockets than they are with standing up and being counted, tragically nothing will ever change in our community. The travesties will continue to flow unchecked, wrongs will not be righted and the tzibbur with no real figure heads to be able to look up to, will continue to decline in its moral fibre.

In the meantime for G-d's sake can everyone please pay attention to this:

If you don't like the things that are said here because you find them too irreverent - DON'T VISIT. Noone is forcing you to. Go learn a blatt gemorro instead or better yet go read the Moreh Nevuchim for some guidance.

If you do decide to visit, please, take the posts here with a large pinch of salt - because that is the spirit of this blog.

If you feel inclined to join in the debate, please do - the more the merrier, but whatever you do, DON'T TAKE YOURSELVES SO DAMN SERIOUSLY!

In short: If you don't like the heat - stay out of the kitchen

'nuff said.

shmeil said...

hi reb tickel whats up with the uohc luach for 5774 NO LIST AT ALL OF THE UNION RABBONIM OR MOTZIM once again hiding things

David said...

Unrabbled - There are indeed some machmirim in Yerushalayim who don't carry in the eruv there. I haven't heard any of them trying to stop the klal from using it, and even if there are, I hadn't noticed any calls from the poskim to take the eruv down. Rabbi Roberts has no right to expect London to be any different. And if we're talking about those who follow R. Moshe's shittos consistently, perhaps we should ask why they think R. Dovid Feinstein allowed an eruv in Chicago whilst the same would not apply to London. One doesn't need to prove that RPR's knowledge of eruvin is deficient, he managed to do that perfectly well himself. In his book of droshes he condemns those who want an eruv for the purposes of 'tiyul', which is exactly the reason the Prisho gives for building an eruv in the first place. To think that he knows more about eruvin than the Ttitz Eliezer is quite simply a joke, and a bad one at that. And I'm surprised even a dyed in the wool apologist such as yourself finds your excuse for his cowardice over CH remotely convincing.

Uri said...

Shmeil - Those whackjobs didn't want to "offend Reb Chuna". At this stage the joke is on GG for still having anything to do with these idiots.

פי האסון said...


Your angry retort only proves that I have hit a raw nerve, and has caused you to write with even less coherence than your normal low standard.

Unlike some rabble, I don't claim to know anything about anything. It was you, in your infinite stupidity, who proclaimed that people left the Adass by the bus load in order to carry in the eruv. I merely provided another reason why people left in their droves. Unlike your erroneous suppositions, mine is based on evidence.

You are right, I am not at all versed in Bell's Palsy, its causes or affects. There are R"l many, other diseases about which I am equally ignorant. That doesn't make it right for the Rov to ignore people or to treat them as he does, and has done for years.

I do not hate him, but that doesn't mean I can't criticise his mistakes, or worse. If he behaves in an inappropriate manner, we are duty bound to criticise it.

I don't believe that Reb Moshe was asked about the London Eruv, so I don't see the relevance of your suddenly bringing him into this debate along with New Yorkers and Jerusalemites who don't carry in an eruv. As you have mixed him into the debate, I doubt very much that he would ever have publicly humiliated someone at a Chuppa by saying that you are possul for eidus because you are a mechalel shabbos befarhesyoh, about a person who asked a shaileh and was carrying in accordance with the psak issued. In fact, I don't believe you will find anyone who knew Reb Moshe, who would verify that Reb Moshe would even condone such behaviour.

You then continue with the fun element. Let me enlighten you. If the title of the blog contains the words Tickle and Laugh, then the discussion, no matter how serious the subject matter, is going to have some element of levity.

You accuse me of defamity, and then proceed to defame me. Using your standards, my testicles must be the size of watermelons, for I'm quite happy to sit face to face with anybody 'I have defamed' to talk things through, all they need to do is ask.

As to the balance of your comments, I believe that you are attempting to insult me. If that is the case, you have failed miserably. I take no offence from your comments, just as I don't take offence from anything any other fool says about me.

The only positive comment you make is that you will cease wasting precious minutes responding. That will now leave the path clear for intelligent debate.

PS. A word to the wise, doing something and simply writing 'this is how' doesn't actually show how it's done .

פי האסון said...

David, be careful. You have dared criticise RPR, if you are not smitten immediately with some Divine punishment, you may incur the poisoned pen of unrabbled. Then where can you go?

פי האסון said...

נחזור לעניננו


A M Ho'oretz said...

Donkey - I think we should be friends. Our views on most things seem to chime rather well. I would be proud to be a member of your rabble-hood!

You last post made me chuckle out loud - my colleagues are now very curious to know why!

All I can say is that if the "Collective of Jerusalem Lovers" admire him so much - they are welcome to keep him. (In fact I think we should write to Theresa May and give her good reasons to prevent his re-entry into the UK in any case, just to cover all bases) Unfortunately what they will find if they keep him, is that he is such a poor successor to his father TZ"L who they venerate so highly, that they would choke on the Yerushalmi Kugel. In a city known for its extremes, it would be interesting to see their views on a "Godol HaTorah" who is comfortable harboring child molesters, paedophiles and sexual abusers, simply because they use the same hat-maker.

On an aside - I'm very pleased that we will no longer hear from your dear pen-friend "Unrabbled", but here's a question:

Will he still be reading what we write?

I wish you a very good shabbos

Keep it real - brother

Chauncey said...

This is awesome!

פי האסון said...

Ho'oretz A M Mr.
I thank the L-rd above that in you I have found at least one person able to think honestly and clearly. What a breath of fresh Aviras EY.

Regretfully I must inform you that the rabble going under the banner of Eida ha'Charediss, whilst carrying on their battle against the zionist oppressors latest attempt to eradicate the holy Torah by insisting that Yeshiva bochurim do military service, and are dissing themselves in the battle of the Gaved vs Raved by taking opposing views on the Gulaventzitzs digs in ir Hakodesh Beis Shemesh, still maintain that Yerushalmi sharpness of mind. Thus, they would never have entertained the idea of inviting or eminent moron, let alone put up such notices acclaiming his all empowering knowledge, etc, unless they were convinced he had a return ticket.

Further more, I believe that his stance in not condemning one of their own and permitting abuse and sexual predators to continue unhindered, is what got him the invite initially.

Keep up the good work, and stay true to your values. I'd hate to see you turn into a Taanis Chulem.

A M Ho'oretz said...

Well Donkey Mr.

Isn't this turning into quite a 'love in'!

I must correct you on one point - I have never been accused previously of having clarity of thought, (or honesty for that matter) and possibly never will. I just have an uncontrolable urge to vent my spleen in a slightly quirky, hopefully humorous sort of way in the hope that others may learn to be slightly less uptight and learn to laugh a little more.

In terms of the Eida, I'm surprised they have the time to bother with matters Yinglish - I would have thought they have their hands full enough trying to fight off the hundreds of other local Hechsherim when noone really trusts Hashgochos any more, now that we are all aware just how un-holy the Rabbit-net really are.

However, I feel that despite your (probably correct) assumptions about their knowledge of the existence of a return ticket, the time to act is still now. For after all, as we have seen in recent days, the Home Office is not the greatest at respecting legitimate travel and we still have a chance of at the very least getting the Great Ambivalent Anarchistic Vehement 'Alpern Defender (GA'AVAD) detained for up to 9 hours under Section 7 of the Terrorism Act, even if he will probably be eventually released back into 'The Hill' without charge.

They will probably ask him a question or two - but all he is likley to say in response is: "Please - no police"

Lastly, please rest assured, I have no option to keep up the good work and be true to my values. After all, I have always been, remain and will alway be nothing more than a simple

A M Ho'oretz

grave situation said...

Re the grave digging saga I wonder whose side Google earth will come out on this time...

Anonymous said...

Bells Palsy is no excuse for rudeness. Or arrogance. Or pig-headedness. Or enabling an abuser. Or ignoring other Yidden he feels are 'inferior'. etc. etc.
(The fact that he was like this before the Bells Palsy is just an inconvenient fact)
He is a servant to the community...an example to one and all as to how to behave and live ones life.
If you seek to somehow defend the mans actions, I pity you. You are obviously way too close to the situation to have any kind of objective view.
I actually pity the entire community to have such 'Gedollim' as we have. Money grubbers, abusers and tin-pot cranks.
No wonder we are so torn when the ones who are supposed to heal us are too busy covering-up their own filth to care.
To paint a victim of abuse as the criminal, to facilitate the shunning of her family for the crime of believing her....how is this possible? Really? Stop and think?
Some wonderful moral standards are being upheld. How refreshing it would be if guilty people were shunned and the innocent victims helped??
But no. Our 'leaders' want their own protected...and never mind who gets in the way.
Scum and filth.

פי האסון said...

Mon AMi, I stand corrected.

Back to the Eda ha-lo-chareidiss, and matters Yinglish. Apart from any play on words subtly referring to matters concerning young boys. The Eida consists of Rav T Weiss & Rav M Sternbuch - if not greater numbers - classic English gentlemen with a good English elocution and vocabulary. Certainty better than our esteemed moron was able to produce for TV or even for his kehilla.

פי האסון said...

The most anti-semitic side possible.

פי האסון said...

In the event that he is detained by immigration, no doubt his co-demon-straters would travel to the EUHQ and British Embassy in Brussels to protest this animal cruelty.

Undoubtedly Theresa will immediately succumb to the pressure by the international furore and public outcry, and will grant him an honorary lifetime visa with unrestricted access to all outposts of the British Empire and freedom of the boroughs of Hackney and Haringey.

grave situation said...

In the 'unfortunate saga' they had to go against the blogger..
Anyway they are the baal achsanya over here

פי האסון said...

I thought we'd left RPR behind and returned back to the moron disaster. As we seem to unable to move away, the one redeeming quality that RPR had, in spite of all his errors of judgement, was that he is an honourable man and true to his beliefs. Back at the end of 2012 he stopped attending the Beis din, as he couldn't bring himself to sit together with people like that. He is also on record for stating that he wouldn't return.

Reports I've received indicate that of late, he has resumed his attendance at the den of thieves. Should this turn out to be true, can you explain this sudden turnaround, or has he turned turncoat? Either way, are these activities in keeping with the ethos of honour? Or, is he, like so many other "honourable" people, a bluffer who is full of $hit?

פי האסון said...

All this debate on the behaviour of Hendon's most eminent UOHC Dayan, got me to refresh myself with his splinter-up-the-backside producing non-informative bulletin posted on this blog on 10-12-2012.

In the same posting, Mr Tickle also provided the Moron Disaster's notice that following his receiving instructions from Jerusalem's HQ, he has decided to put together a fair and unbiased panel of Dayanim to hear the case in accordance with the laws of Moses. I don't recall if that notice has been retracted, and if so, whether the retraction was retracted, etc. What I did notice is that at the time of issue, both Rb T Weiss & Rb M Sternbuch were singing off the same Tehilim sheet. Thus, the advice given by W, was assumed to be the opinion of the entire Cheider 'Arelus.

Now that the 2 eminent gentleman are, in true charedi fashion, at war with each other, does Moron follow W or S? Is the Beis Din, should the police decide to halt proceedings and allow a far superior panel to determine what didn't happen, to be reconvened? Will their ruling be binding on everybody, or is it going to follow the path of Satmar and we'll have the Tovim vs the Moshi'im? And if so, to which camp does our Moron belong?

I believe it was the Zalmonim who oppose the Moshi'im, therefore it stands to reason that the Aharonim will oppose the Tovim. Knowing which Satmar faction our Moron follows, could be quite insightful to the way the Beis Din l'inyonei Birur Gidrei Hapritzus Lma'an Kdushas HaShabbos Yisroel vYom Hazikaron, will be instructed to produce the findings of their inquiry and all ensuing retractions.

Something to mull over with your glass of Mead, while the jury is out.

Anonymous said...

PR (I refuse to acknowledge him as Rav - as he does not behave like one) forgets that half the Aseres HaDibrot is Bein Adom Lechavero

I was one of the Avelim also ignored by PR 2 months ago, it s not like he does not know I am, as my father made me go up and wish him Good Shabbos every week at his shul

He has ignored me for years, and I know he has heard me when I spoke to him

As for his duties? He refused point blank to give Hespeidim and speak at Stone Settings, how is this right? He is employed to be be leader of the community, not to do as he wants

Finally, someone mentioned how full his shabbat HaGodol and Shuva shuirs are. Do you mention that he refuses to speak English in these 2 shuirim, and if you dont speak Yiddish you can go whistle. Deliberatly excluding members of your community for your ego is a disgrace

A M Ho'oretz said...

I'm afraid my good donkey that - T'was ever thus.

Although I appreciate your witticisms about the chareidishe oilem and it's non-leadership (and they certainly have a failing or two to share between them)it strikes me (like a shofar blast) that the whole sorry saga was destined to end this way. For it was always the case that in order for the Grand Towel Master to be brought to book, it would require not only for women to be prepared to whisper in the ears of their counsellors about the horrors they were allegedly subjected to, to cause a tumult, an outcry and subsequent police investigation. No, what was necessary and is still the cause of all the delays, is that at least one of the victims (and preferably all of them) be prepared to make public statements to the authorities and agree to testify in court.

The sad truth is that until now, despite the best police efforts, the women appear to afraid to do so. They are scared of the consequences for themselves and their families. My understanding is that they have requested to be able to testify anonymously (behind a screen or in closed session) for which there is no precedent in cases of this type in the UK and therefore an unusual exception would need to be made in their case, which, it appears, is as yet not forthcoming. So in the meantime, while there is this impasse and the police continue to defer their bail, The suspect continues to operate as if nothing has changed.

I'm sure there will be the usual festivities of apple throwing etc at DH over the coming Yom Toivim and all the while the Moral Disaster rubs his hands together with glee in the knowledge that the longer time passes, the more people learn to forget, the communal vitriol that was being expressed this time last year subsides and that with a fair wind and a couple of extra Al Cheit's this year, perhaps all will soon be forgotten.

It is down to us to ensure this does not happen.

We must make a stand and ensure that Police or not, Beis Din or not, we cannot let this die - justice must be done.

I for one will not be able to stand confidently in shul this Yomim Noro'im in the hope of a judgement for a good year when I am part of a community that has stood by and allowed such moral bankrupcy in our midst and not taken sterner action.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

In the hope that all the righteous will be blessed with a Shana Tova U'Mesuka

A M Ho'oretz

Pinchosed Off said...

Once again, the waste of space that is Rabbi Pinchos Roberts has shown his true colours. After initially agreeing to give a Pirkei Ovos shiur in Matok he withdrew citing a kpeida from the Godfather. When challenged by a member of the aforementioned minyan that Roberts was effectively hanging them out to dry, he stuck with the Chuna uber alles line. Anyone who thinks Roberts is any different from his mates Padwa, Halpern and co is sorely mistaken.