Tuesday, 9 April 2013

The Silver Lining

Progress yet again and kudos to Rabbi Shimon Winegarten for the new ShemaKoli abuse helpline.

It of course gives you an idea how much confidence he has in the UOHC 'help' line. It also shows a sensitivity to men and women victims which hadn't occurred to our locals when launching their unisex line. Gender separation is just for the photographers,it seems. And you can bet that the person at the other end of this line will be marginally more sensitive than the one who was answering the UOHC line with his glorious track record in 'admissions' to 'his' schools.

Should we assume that the hours allotted to men and women point to the ratio of abuse victims amongst them? Or is it simply easier to find suitable female volunteers than men?


Betrayed former supporter said...

Launching 11th April?


Yerachmiel Lopin said...

If they are including spousal violence than they probably need more women's hours. However, this is mickey mouse. In a era of cell phones, there is no reason the hours could not be longer because people can be on call without actually working most of that time. Besides why trust UOHC given their past record.

Adloyada said...

Kol HaKavod to Rav Shimon Weingarten. I hope many other rabbonim will endorse and publicise this service.
And Kol HaKavod, Reb Tickle, for doing your part in publcising it, too.

* said...

Dare I ask the million dollar question?
What is their policy on reporting criminal, or alleged criminal activity to the police?

Stamford Hiller said...

I think we all know why it is launching on the 11th, the date is not a coincident.... Lol

Is MbP Child Abuse? said...

Two more babies stricken with herpes after ritual ultra-orthodox Jewish oral blood sucking circumcision in New York City
Since 2000 13 known cases of herpes have been contracted from the religious practice
Two deaths and two babies suffering brain damage have resulted
Department of health warns there being no safe way to perform the ritual that dates back more than 5,000 years

According to Rabbi David Zwiebel, executive vice president of the Orthodox Jewish organization Agudath Israel of America, two-thirds of boys born in New York City's Hasidic communities are circumcised in the oral suction matter.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304793/Two-babies-stricken-HERPES-ritual-oral-blood-sucking-circumcision-New-York-City.html#ixzz2Q0Ecngg7
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Metzitzah B'peh said...

Click on the link for a virtual library of reading on the MbP issue. Much food for thought.


Mikveh news said...


* said...

Whats on the 11th (tomorrow)?

Anonymous said...

BD writes
Since they dont give the names of those who will be manning the phones it may not be that confidential if they happen to know you.
Would not an email address be better where you can call yourself what you like and perhaps choose whom you would like to speak to, someone who doesnt know you.

horrified said...

STOP EVERYBODY !!!! This is the most serious claim I have ever heard with devastating repercusions if there is any truth in his claims. Who is this Rabbi who is claiming that the GG Mikveh is Posul ? When was that letter written and why is it not dated ? And what are our Rabbonim saying to answer his claims ? Does anybody have the whole story ?

sh victim said...

1. This is a typical UOHC type advert. Minimal publicity (none in Stamford Hill). No names, just a telephone number. "Approved by Rabbonim". Which Rabbonim? Who are these trained and experienced advisors? Where and when were they trained? Where and when did they gain their experience.

2. It is vital to differentiate between abuse and ALLEGED abuse. Having been a victim of completely false allegations I know what it's like.

What's tomorrow, you ask? said...

Tomorrow the 11th of April is "April opinions day" new opinions are formed every minute.

The opinions might include some (or all) of;
1. The cops always had it in for him.
2. We knew all along it was all lies and porkies.
3. This is regular procedure, just wait and see what happen's next.
4. They were paid off.
5. They weren't paid enough.
6. Negotiations regarding the pay-off fee stalled / still ongoing.
7. The evidence has disappeared.
8. No one came forward.
9. Some came forward then retracted.
10. They questioned the alleged witnesses and concluded it was a which-hunt.
11. The witnesses were threatened by horse-meat and had to retract.
12. He wants it to get to court so he can clear his name.
13. The cops want it to get to court so they can prove it was a which-hunt and so file charges on the rumour spreaders.
14. The people who always disliked him are too powerful even for the cops.
15. They are desperate to bring down a prominent Jewish figure and will do everything to get results.
16. Police trained divers are searching the ocean depths for a hard drive.
17. Hard drive was thoroughly examined and nothing untoward was found.

We will hear and read many more opinions on the '11th of April - April Opinion day' watch Reb Tickle for light hearted entertainment all day (or not?).

Att RSW: said...

Just a few questions...
By whom?
To what? Torah? Law? Human?
How? On whom?
...Call cannot be traced...
Is that so? How is it?

BTW, RSW, are you still in the Union? So why should I trust any more than them?
Get out of there, or stop your nonsense crusade.

Let me see you put together some financial support for victims that have to go for counseling, and that are losing their job because of reporting it.
Are you here only on the free stuff?

SilentWitness said...

Justice for school children who suffered years of torment will be welcomed.

The Pedant aka Hagers Spy said...

his name is spelt WINEgarten

Adloyada said...

The poiice do not slumber, neither do they sleep...


Inquiring Minds said...

Does this comply with the extensive requirements of the Charities Commission?

Not anonymous said...

So on and on this saga goes and still no justice. What about the victims?? One of the other blogs is claiming the police investigation is failing due to a lack of Rabbinic support. Can this be true? are the rabbonim abandoning their responsibility?

sh victim said...

To Not Anonymous

You mean, of course, (self) alleged victims.
So far there has not been produced an iota of independant objective evidence.
Maybe the Rabbonim are doing their proper duty and protecting the entirely innocent victims of wicked and vindictive persecution. Which is their primary responsibilty.
Trust me. I know what I am talking about.

Sunday said...

Dear me, it is a great shame that many people are so anti. RSW helped you become anti CH and now you are anti RSW.

To dispell some myths:

The new service is answered by serious qualified trained professional psycotherapists who are members of community. They have had specific additional trained to handle 'hotline type' cases rather than appointment.

They won't know who you are if you don't give your name. They will provide advice like in a normal face to face consultation.

They are regulated as professionals and will report to Police if they suspect a crime has or is taking place.

The reason it is not a 24hr hotline is because the volunteers do have family and a day job and there are alternatives such as Samaritians or Womens aid.


me said...

What do we have to say about the new meat shop?! Its way cheaper than anything else!!! But even if it was more expensive I would still buy it in order not to have to give Keddasia money!

BLBH supporter said...

RSW together with RCH were almost alone in this area. Left to deal with all the problems in the community.

RSW has tried so hard to help people, if those who comment criticise him, then they cannot possibly know him.

He and RCH were left to deal with emotional issues from members of shuls whose rabbonim (especially the litvisher rabbonim)were unable to deal with any questions except those relating to halochoh and hashkofoh.

Basically, if the problem wasn't in rashi or tosafos, the shulchan oruch, tur, rambam, rif, ran, etc, then it doesn't exist.

We have a city full of great talmudei chachomim, who know everything in the seforim and nothing about human beings in these doros.

You would have thought that the human condition since the time of the Haskalah would have been well documented in the Rabbinic literature, but it either hasn't been dealt with, or no one knows where to find it.

Now that CH has effectively been put out of action (although some people still find that there is no one else to go to) RSW is left alone in picking up the pieces of this community, whether it be wayward spouses, children going off the derech, mental health issues or abuse.

Nothing has changed since this whole issue has blown up.

The rest of the rabbonim in our community, including the other 4 rabbonim who signed the GD should feel ashamed of themselves.

Anthony Davis said...

No new posts RABBI Tickle???

Anthony Davis said...

Oh, and by the way, why is there 3 days for women and 1 for men? Ring a bell?

Anthony Davis said...

Are u all dead or something?! No comments, no new posts, no nothing! What's going on???

*** said...

BLBH Supporter,

With all due respect, Rabbonim were never meant to be social workers or counselors. Why criticize them for not being something they are not meant to be?

In the recent past, people with these issues went to professionals and left the Rabbonim to deal with, as you quite rightly point out, Rashi or Tosafos, the shulchan oruch, tur, rambam, rif, ran, etc.

In the few cases marriage problems ended up with a Rov, it was (with very rare exceptions) to decide whether the husband must give a divorce and if so force him to do so. Otherwise the couple were told to work it out for themselves. Life was hard in the Shtetle, but they got on with it.

Ask your great grand parents if they had ever heard of marriage counselling. Nowadays we expect others to be able to fix up all our personal, health, parnosso problems etc like the garage fix our car.

BLBH supporter said...

*** said

Unfortunately, in these doros (and that was the point I was making) frum people need guidance on these issues from someone they can trust and someone who understands the situation from a frum viewpoint.

You cannot look back at generations before and say "this is how they did it", because in many respects, the way they did it also did not cure the problem.

If you want to draw inspiration from the Ovos, then fine, but Bereishis will not help you get through 2013, and the Ovos are not around to ask. Great at knowing how to deal with Eisav, but there are many issues in respect of which you would be hard pushed to get an answer from that parsha.

People would be shocked at some of the answers given by some of the Litvisher Rabbonim IN THIS AREA to various issues. You would have been better off asking the grocer.

The fact is that very few shomer torah and mitzvos become properly trained professionals. There is also a problem with confidentiality in the community. There are plenty of amateurs who dabble in this and that, and even man helplines, but that is not enough.

So the rov may be the first point of call, and he needs to be able to deal with the issue himself or properly point people to trained professionals, about whom he can personally attest. There is no point going to the GP for many of these issues, even ones which relate to mental health.

That the yeshivas and the kollelim have not provided the tools necessary for someone to be a communal rov is neither here nor there. He has to acquire the skills, as otherwise all he is is a posek. That is not to say that we don't need poskim, but we need communal rabbonim who can help.

A rov has to be a good all rounder in dealing with his kehilloh, no matter what they throw at him. If guidance was lehavdil sought from a goysher priest, and the response was a shrug of his shoulders, then both the enquirer and the priest would feel that the priest has failed.

If your rov gives a nice shiur fine. If he can pasken between treife and kosher, fine, but that is really not enough to be a leader of a shul. If that is all your shul expect of him, fine, but that is not what everyone else necessarily expects.

I would also mention that there are Rabbonim who entirely disagree with what you say, and see themselves as being essential in being able to help others in many issues outside Halocho and Hashkofo. That one Rov has allegedly overstepped the mark, is proof of nothing. For each Rov who has stepped into dangerous areas, there are a dozen who are about as much use in a crisis as a chocolate teapot.

I wish I could be a Supporter said...

BLBH Supporter

You're 100% right!
The answers I've received on sensitive issues from some of the 'top Rabbonim' in NW11 have been absolutely shocking.

**** has a point that they can't be expected to know the answer to everything - bt they should at least know who the issue can be reffered to. They should surely be hooked up with major therapists & speacialists in the area.

Ans if they havn't got time to sufficiently deal with the issue - they shouldn't resort to playing the 'time will sort everything out...just stay strong!' card!

Is that too much to ask?

*** said...


I agree with most of what you say in principle, but you still haven't explained why these things fall on the Rov's shoulders. You seem to be saying that because there is nobody else, it has to be him de facto. Not sure where you get that from and I disagree. The same way a Rov would not be expected to deal with tooth ache, he cannot be expected to deal with heart ache. It is only since the days of chasidic rebbes that rabbonim were expected to deal with these things. And chasidic rebbes dealt with these things more mystically than practically. And historically it was never the remit of non chasidic rabbonim. Until today, when as you write, it has become expected.

It may well be a problem that the kehilla has not set up a suitable structure or suitable training, but again that doesn't mean the burden must fall on the Rov. A Rov I know will not touch choshen mishpat due to a lack of practical experience although he knows the texts cold, even though some members of his kehilla have 'thrown this at him'. Would you consider that a problem? What's the difference?

No priest would get involved in serious marriage counselling unless seperately and properly trained. The odd sholom bayis chat maybe to sort out petty things like the colour of the wallpaper or how often to smack the kids, and Rabbonim do that as well. When untrained priests get involved in serious sholom bayis problems, we know that this can cause worse problems.

Bali Hotels said...

great post!!!

Anthony Davis said...

What is going on??? You're all talking rubbish and jibberish!!!
Please make a new post RABBI Tickle!!!I am dead bored

Anthony Davis said...

Come on! You've always got what to say, what's goin on?

I wish I could be a Supporter said...

Anthony Davies -
Keep quiet, you shallow-headed troublemaker. If you can't handle a meaningful blog - go elsewhere.

This discussion is of paramount importance for our generation - and for our children's too.

Bali Resorts said...

Very nice post, i love it very much

Love is in the air... said...

Does Israel belong to Charedim?

Where is the love boys & meideluch?

SH educated said...

Well, it is, or claims to be, the JEWISH state.

Humble blogs said...

Humble blogs escape press controls... see http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/61da95aa-9479-11e2-b822-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2RPCk9XcL

Shefa Meats said...

NEW meat shop to open on Golders green road this Sunday....

Finally the time has arrived....

SilentWitness said...

Preventing abuse should be a priority
Justifying abuse a criminal offense
Do some of these schmocks think they can excuse reality.
Do they really think we give a #### of what they have to say
Some of us are trying to recover from our ordeals that left scars which don't just go away.

To many children, and some women have suffered from people who are governing our schools and community that have twisted beliefs which are contradictory to Judaism

We must get rid of the corrupt money men that love to dominate our society and are making the choices of who governs and rules in the community .

Funny how a innocent child can be refused a place at school, and a abusive teacher accepted.

Domestic abuse, well ask your shadchan for a refund.

Yerachmiel Lopin said...

Too much is expected of the Rov of the shul but they are responsible for letting themselves become the authorities on everything and having a vested interest in too much control. Tzimtzum would be a good idea if applied to rabbinical authority and power.

BLBH supporter said...

*** said

You hit the nail on the head! The problem stems from the same time that the chassidshe rebbes appeared.

The Chofetz Chaim said that the Chassidim were the seguloh to the Haskalah, and it is the Haskalah which has changed everything and according to some, even brought about the churban Europe.

It is the end of time, people are weak and need help from their spiritual guides. The rov is the person through whom all shidduchim enquiries are routed. The rov is the person who endorses your appeal letter to raise money. The rov is the person who gets involved in emotional matters because there are always halachic considerations to consider. Because he is a familiar answerer of our questions, he is naturally, the first port of call for many people.

To take your analogy about the dentist a bit further, there are Shuls around the country which were built in a certain way because the Honorary Officers asked the advice of an architect and did not ask a Rov as well. As a result, we have shuls with the oron facing every direction except Mizrach. We have shul succas with a roof opening several amos from the walls. There are shuls with mechitzos which are useless.

We know when to go to the dentist. But matters are often not so clear cut as in that example.

If I could speak to you personally, I could relate to you some shocking examples. You would be very upset at the total helplessness of many members of the community who cannot get help from anywhere for serious problems and where the lack of compassion of their Rov has added to their feelings of despair.

So, many turned to Rabbi Chaim Halpern and also many go to Rabbi Shimon. There is still nowhere else for people to go. Nothing has changed.

Fuming said...

The Union have now publicized notices with a dedicated phone number to report abuses.

It beggars belief how an organisation, which is headed by a dedicated defender of serial abusers, should have the chutzpah to take on such a role.

Kemafia said...

Fuming - You needn't worry. The abuses Padwa and chums are concerned with involve such weighty matters as women whose tights have not been fully bullet proofed. Molestation is not on the agenda, unless you're wearing a shtreimel, in which case you can add it to your CV when you're applying for a position on the UOHC rabbinate.

amie said...

Anyone here heard of this public demand? Is it lesser or greater than the public demand for accountability for abuse in the community?

The haredi umbrella organization the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations reportedly said the committee and hotline are not UOHC projects, although rabbis belonging to the UOHC had launched them in response to “public demand.”


feh said...


new hotline!!

Absolutely Anonymous said...

BLBH supporter:
"There is still nowhere else for people to go."

That's as true as you want it to be. If you choose to seperate yourself from anyone who could help you due to your preconceived notions then yes, you are right.

פי האסון said...

Dayan C Ehrentreu, Dayan Y Abrahams, Rb S Freshwater, Rb A Kimche, to name but a few local Rabbonim that I know of that deal with the subjects you mentioned plus others, throughout the wider community. They don't make a big fuss of themselves and know their limitations and will refer to professionals as and when necessary.
The majority of Rabbonim in our community don't have the necessary skills to deal with these subjects. Would you prefer that they started meddling in matters they have no idea how to deal with?
Nowadays, becoming a community Rabbi, entails that the person will have learned for a respectable number of years at a respectable yeshiva/kollel and will have received smicha. This does not require much halachic knowledge as generally the testing is on YD & CM. Shimush, which teaches how to pasken in practice, not just the theoretical halacha from the Tor or Shulchan Aruch, is not a pre-requisite.

פי האסון said...

Perhaps the Rabbis should study civil engineering too, so that a member who is about to build an extension can be advised how much concrete to pour for foundations and how much steel is needed to support the structure. They should also study medicine so that they can advise their sick, to seek a particular cure or treatment.
A person about to build consults a qualified surveyor and a person who is unwell consults a (specialist) doctor. A couple who are having marital issues should likewise condult a professional. There are haredi counsellors for all types of issues that require counselling and confidentiality is not an issue. And worst case scenario, one goes for counselling outside the community. When your gp refes you to a Harlry Street specialist, do you say no, he's not Jewish, he won't understand my symptoms, I'll ask my rov instead?